The Truth about Positive Dog Training Part 1 (K9-1.com)

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Video clip to be utilized for leveling the playing area when having a discussion concerning positive support vs positive punishment in dog training. Comparison generally in between traditional pet dog training with Barbara Woodhouse and major stream positive canine trainers Dr. Ian Dunbar, Victoria Stilwell, and also Zak George dog training change. Modern well balanced canine instructors are not covered in this video clip. Remember that any kind of fitness instructor can misuse devices or be violent generally. This is only a comparison of when positive support and positive penalty have actually been made use of in commercialized dog training.

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Comments

42 Responses to “The Truth about Positive Dog Training Part 1 (K9-1.com)”
  1. Nose Nose says:

    poor doogs

  2. Sergio Perez says:

    Am a big Koehler fan and for a second I thought this was gonna be another video bashing on the choke collar and the old school training methods of good William K.
    Boy was I wrong… great video guyz

  3. john s says:

    Truth about Positive training or is this just about Victoria Stillwell?

  4. M S says:

    I have been training dogs professionally for 35 years. This would have to be one of the best videos I have watched dispelling all the myths about so-called positive only training. I shared it on my business Facebook page, and the response from my follows was great. Looking forward to part 2. Keep up the great work.

  5. Klutzy Mutt says:

    The clips of Victoria are soooo old that this was before the “leader of the pack” and “humping for dominance” was debunked, which she knows now. Same with Dr. Dunbar’s shouting in dog’s faces and yanking leads (those videos were late 70’s-80’s). But Dr. Dunbar is a doctor and also oversees many of the tests. He since has denounced yanking or shouting in the face. Victoria’s story was she was an actress walking dogs for extra cash, but she found her calling and became Professionally Certifide.
    Cesar still has yet to have one piece of educated credentials and fails any exam he’s tried to take.

    But she wasn’t teaching intimidation. I much rather use a curt “A-ah!” Then yank or shock.
    Also, feeling and love should aaaaalways be apart of training. Love as reward suggests our dogs need to earn our love, but each dog is differant. There is no “wrong” reward wherher its food, toys, praise…but love is 100% the time you are with that dog. I knew a dog that rather have cuddles and scratches!

    • Irene Widdows says:

      @K9-1 Being dominant over your dog does not ensure that they will not still be dominant or aggressive toward another dog or person. It will certainly prevent aggression toward YOU, as the dominant one, because that will be the relationship you established with that one animal. Hierarchies are fluid. It’s not “I’m the alpha over all my dogs, therefore they are all submissive to each other and everything else they encounter”. No, the dog is submissive to you. But it will have different relationships with other animals/people, that has nothing to do with its rank in relation to you. Also, the natural rank/hierarchy has nothing to do with the unnatural environments we put our dogs in – establishing rank with your dog is NOT enough to guide them through all of the stuff we expect them to understand and live with in this day and age. It has nothing to do with actual training, and teaching the dog to navigate in our crazy world.

      It’s not ‘the positive community’ that is causing people to get bit and dogs euthanized. That’s a ridiculous claim, and it can be turned around just as easily when punishment-based trainers suppress aggression, correct the growl out of a dog, and end up with dogs that bite ‘out of the blue’ with ‘no warning’ – those dogs get euthanized just as much as the dog that bites because some crappy positive trainer came in and said “just use treats to distract him!” It’s bad dog trainers, on either side of the fence, that is causing people to get bit. Trainers that can’t read dogs, aren’t educated and don’t know how to properly address aggression, that get themselves and their clients bit. It’s also a lack of training altogether – idiot dog owners that don’t get their dogs trained, where a trainer might potentially see a problem arising that the owner did not notice, which could be addressed early to prevent something bad from happening. It’s also bad breeding, the wrong dogs getting into the wrong hands. Breed trends. Overpopulation. There is so much MORE involved in dog bites, that this claim of yours drives me insane!

      How do you know what’s going on in the classrooms of positive dog trainers? Do you attend them frequently? You make a lot of big claims, so I hope there is some sort of reasoning to back that up.

      You seem to have this giant presumption that ‘positive’ trainers have some sort of agenda for marketing and misleading people, and what have you. Whatever it is that you’re going on about. Speaking from my perspective “Ain’t nobody got time for that!” I have a dog to exercise and train, clients to work with, a house to maintain and a relationship with my fiance that also needs attention. I also have friends and outside interests, family gatherings to attend, etc. That is my day-to-day life. Where in there is there time for this grandeur scheme? I don’t have an agenda – do you think that advertising myself as a ‘positive’ “no yelling, yanking or shocking” trainer gets me all of the clients? No, it doesn’t – people walk out when they hear they don’t need to dominate and physically punish their dogs to train and get control. That’s an absolutely ridiculous assumption. Nobody is that focused on some crazy goal unless they’re a sociopath/psychopath/narcissist – see Hitler, big oil companies (that carelessly devastate delicate ecosystems/environments or wage war on other countries for money), banks, Monsanto, corrupted politics, etc etc. THOSE people’s lives revolve around a certain type of marketing and manipulation to get what they want. The little positive-based dog trainer down the street is not hell-bent on some crazy, ridiculous plot. I see the same things being said about ‘balanced’ trainers, and I find it equally ridiculous – the e-collar trainer across town is not out to plot, manipulate and mislead for money, fame and …. whatever. They just love dogs and they’re doing their job. I may not agree with what they do, but that’s not the point, and it doesn’t make them bad. There are always exceptions, but in general, it’s ridiculous to assume that an entire community of one type of trainer or another has some grandeur scheme/plot.

      It all sounds to me like you have some – or a lot- of distorted thinking going on. And I think you’re just barking up the wrong tree with all this bashing. It’s going nowhere, it’s not educational, it advocates for nothing.

    • Federer935 says:

      Great to read a sensible comment which looks at the problem from all angles. By creating and focusing upon the ‘battle’ between positive and traditional / negative etc methods, the truth is lost. The truth is that dogs ( like children ) need to be trained in civilised behaviour and the expectations of society. This needs to be taught, consolidated and reinforced as required – right from the start. People who fail to do this develop problems and undesirable traits in both dogs and children. Once the trait is learnt and has become a habit, it is very hard to change ( but not impossible). Buying dogs bred to fight and be aggressive to be family pets is stupid – you need to match the breed to the situation not follow a stupid fashion / macho whim. Children also need to be educated as to how to behave with a dog. If you torment it / play inappropriately – it will snap / bite etc.. Parents need to take responsibility for this. Supervision / training are needed. I am doubtful of the dominance idea – you are the owner and should take the lead and set standards of behaviour right from the outset, you are in charge naturally. Fail to do this and problems will occur. Dogs are not wolves and neither are we. This comparison is inappropriate. Dogs need to be led by us naturally as owners ( just like parents should lead and teach their children). Training needs time and effort and when this does not happen, problems arise in both dogs and children. When dogs / children do something wrong, we need to make them aware through our body language and personality – with punishment appropriate to the situation and likewise reward appropriately when something good / expecte has been done. Good parents and good dog owners have done this for years – we do not need prima donnas or schools of thought / approaches – it should be a natural human skill. We do have it – or how else has society survived and developed? We just need to relearn our responsibilities.

    • Bea Jacks says:

      I agree with yours and Irene’s comments completely. Its all about showing the dog (as with children) the boundaries of what is acceptable behaviour, and constantly reinforcing it so there is no doubt of what you want. We have had many different breeds of dogs, Shepherds, a saluki, corgi, as well as mixed breeds and rescues. What ever the back ground was and what ever the breed, we trained them all the same way. With consistency. Constantly reminding, ‘yes this is good, I want this ‘ or ‘no this is unacceptable’ in a firm but loving way. It is hard work, but it results in the behaviour you want. We had a shepherd before the babies were born and he never challenged either of them. He knew our rules and his boundaries. They learnt to walk by holding onto his fur. I agree its not about one school of thought is wrong and the other right. Its in my mind, showing consistency in a loving way, that makes them feel included, but with your set boundaries will yield the best results.

    • MsPeabody1231 says:

      Klutzy Mutt The clips of Victoria maybe old but they are rerun on Pick TV in the UK regularly. In addition some of her methods of PR are actually the same as Cesar who she hates.

      Oh and you shouldn’t expect someone who learnt English as an adult to be able to pass the same tests as someone whose first language is English plus has a university degree.

    • Van Hughes says:

      Klutzy Mutt. The proof is in the pudding.

  6. Cotswold Seeker says:

    I really admire you for posting this video. Thank you. The section on Victoria Stilwell and the show-type cocker was heart-breaking: what a waste of a life. And this is the danger of ‘positive only training’: when it fails, if you are not prepared to be open to other techniques- what other option is there? We all need to have humility in life- and when we fail or something is too much for us- we need to defer to others: in this case REAL dog trainers or people with experience that, clearly, VS doesn’t have. To say that ‘the only option is to have the dog killed’ simply because she has failed is..to be honest..insane. I really felt great sadness watching that section. There are so many ‘problem dogs’ these days- because of the ‘positive only’ marketing scheme- most of whom can be turned around simply by approaching a BALANCED trainer.

  7. michellemmay says:

    Where the hell does she get off pretending to be a professional? She literally told someone to put their dog down because it can’t be trained, just because her little box of magic tricks didn’t work on him. This pisses me off so much, I’d be so angry if someone lied about their credentials, especially when it comes to them handling my dog. I actually remember watching her show a while ago when I was younger. I’m glad I know it was all bull**** now since I wasn’t old enough to see it when I watched it. Good thing I didn’t have a dog then and use her shitty training techniques.

  8. drewmorg says:

    Damn. What a video!! Thank you so much for this. I’ve been watching so much dog training videos these past couple weeks. Unfortunately the “positive only” dog training crew appears to be more about Celebrity personality than actual dog training tactics that work. I have a 15 month old male Rottweiler and trying to be 0% corrective simply does not work. This dog will run all over you and will even ignore the tastiest treats when he is focused on something else. If you want results it turns out you do in fact need to pop that collar after all. A pronged collar seems to be the most humane in that case, rather than playing tug of war with your dogs neck all over each walk.

    Do you have any videos on dog possession/aggressive behavior techniques? My dog seems to show some type of aggressive dominance over certain items to anyone including myself when my father is not around. Otherwise I can control him well but if he gets a hold of a branch or something he will hunker down and growl and even pull his teeth back a bit. I KNOW that if I push it he will bite. Any advice?

    • drewmorg says:

      +Marta Motevassel yeah I kind of gave up on the positive only methods stuff and went to remote collar training. He was too unruly and responsive without it. Now he has calmed down a lot (he was 1.5 years old when I really started training him in a more strict fashion) after 2

    • k9 aid says:

      Dogs pull to get where they are going, some dogs can be trained to walk exactly beside our legs others may want to be slightly in front or behind. It is what you allow, from the start. Clicker training does not make for better trained dogs it makes for a better trainer. If the dog understands who controls the resources they come to understand in most cases who is the leader. Breed specific makes a difference, Sled dogs bred for pulling so the owner trainer has their work cut out for them most times

    • Cynthia Black says:

      drewmorg you should have socialized him as a puppy. He does not trust you, or respect you. You should have a tufted animal not a rotting.

    • Babyroxasman says:

      drewmorg Don’t know of you’re still following this comments section but my mom’s friend has a cat who basically has a cold that never goes away.
      This lady at the pet store told her to try putting L-lysine in her food and after the 1,000mg starts working the cat’s runny eye and nose stops for at least half the day!
      She also has a pittie and when she gets a cold she gives her 4,000mg of l-lysine. Maybe try crushing the pills up and put them in your dog’s food.

      And then my two year old pit/shepherd mix gets trader Joe’s food (no particular reason, just convenient) and it has l-lysine in the ingredients if you’d maybe want to try getting a food that already has lysine mixed in

  9. Dawn Ellen Miller says:

    I remember that lovely old lady from my childhood.. I trained my ridgie mix the way she demonstrated. She was a wonderful smart dog who learned quickly and almost never needed a correction. She got treats for “tricks” and affection for obedience. She was a wonderful dog. My next dog was very soft and impulsive. I had to be careful to tone down the praise and be short and quick with corrections, never harsh. She may not have been the smartest gal but she was sweet and loved being out and about with us.

    With our current dogs we are doing more food treats, more toy play, and of course loving. It is all about building teamwork. but every now we have to say, enough is enough.

  10. ditte adele says:

    thank you for telling the truth …I …no WE have known it all the time …but the power of fame , has made it very hard . Victoria has allways given me the creaps and made my jaw fall …so thank you for letting the truth out ….hope Cesar Millan s haters are able to se all the video …and actually listen

  11. lyco mania says:

    Being with dogs is not a procedure. It is a relationship and believe me, the dogs understand this better than you. Some dogs will never push you. Some dogs will push you. I’m assuming we’re going to talk about the dogs that push you. You need to be the animal that pushes back harder. Dogs are very perceptive. By pushing back, I don’t mean beating the things. It can be very subtle. Just don’t back down. If my GSD gets nuts (and the good ones do) and comes at me, I dive face-forward into him, hold him back until he calms down and I win. If you back down in any way that an animal would perceive as weakness, you are done with any strong animal. At that point, he believes he is higher in the hierarchy and will feel free to put you in your place if you step up.

    • Federer935 says:

      Good post – I agree. You need to be the human ‘boss’ by your body language and actions. Just like out of control children they believe they ‘rule the roost’ if we let them. I think the problem is that today many people expect to put in no effort and time into training their children and dogs – it’s someone else’s job! Bring back our grandparents approach – it worked!

    • lyco mania says:

      +Federer935 Thanks, although I could critique my post to bits and pieces. It’s a hard thing to put into words and I’m not the best at it. I agree with you that there are many things we should learn from our grandparents, but I have to add that there are some things I’m glad we’ve done away with 🙂 Always learning, always trying to improve 🙂

  12. Hagen Steele says:

    I don’t know what’s worse, the volume of disingenuous “trainers” that ignore dominance and pack structure in order to take advantage of the sensitivities of ignorant pet owners for profit, or the volume of ignorant pet owners that parrot their views.

    Both are dangerous to dogs, owners, and innocent bystanders alike.

    Thanks for the upload.

    • Robert Hannah says:

      could NOT have said it better myself

    • MuffinSubscriber says:

      You do know pack theory has been disproven by the person who created the theory right ?

    • Hagen Steele says:

      +MuffinSubscriber No. It hasn’t. Which you’d know if you bothered to do any actual research.

      It’s simply been attacked by hyper-emotional people, and women especially, and idiots looking to take advantage of them.

      The mere thought that “dominance”, of any kind, could exist at all is threatening to these people, so they deny it and attack those that won’t play their pretentious game.

  13. Rachel Showard says:

    same goes for raising children of you let them do whatever and never reprimand they will never show respect

  14. Peter Caine Dog Training says:

    Awesome video

  15. Viper83ification says:

    My dog broke his leg at 15 weeks and was on restricted activity throughout his recovery. As a high energy Australian Shepherd, this made him crazy and he developed behavioral problems by the time he was able to be active again that I knew I was unable to solve by myself. I went to a “positive reinforcement” trainer recommended by my vet who brushed most of my concerns aside and said he was just acting like a puppy would. She got me to bring him to a socialization class and enrolled him in agility lessons and a tracking seminar.

    Every time he was around this group of dogs and their owners who would squeal and clap at their own dogs, his behavior continued to worsen. The trainer then said that he would have no success unless he could get past his compulsive behavior. I noted that was the whole reason I approached her to begin with. Finally, after a month and $500, I fired her and went to another trainer that uses e-collars. The collars don’t shock the dogs, but emit a pulse that causes muscle contraction. A day later, my dog was listening to me. He knew everything I wanted him to do, but until then wanted to choose when to listen and when not to.

    People are amazed that only a week later, I was taking him to the dog park and leaving him in a place position where he allowed other dogs to come up to him without moving a muscle. I don’t think training collars are inhumane. If anything, they are the most humane solution imaginable because my relationship with my dog is to the point where we are both so much happier and appreciative of the other.

    • Captain Usopp says:

      Viper83ification there are plenty of things you can teach a dog with a broken leg to do so he can be plenty mentally stimulated and still not be putting too much strain on the leg, also you could have taken your puppy to meet other dogs for a couple minutes after the first 1 or 2 weeks of recovery if he was walking in the house OK, just no vigorous running or jumping, dogs break bones but can still be socialised at the important stages

    • Viper83ification says:

      You don’t have a dog play with other dogs when he has a broken leg. That is asinine. I took very good care of him such that the vet said the bone healed in perfect alignment. You missed the entire point of my comment, however, in that positive reinforcement training is bull. He didn’t start listening until he knew that he needed to and now he has his CGC- before he is even a year old.

    • PIGmentation yeet says:

      Viper83ification you are fucked up in the head

    • Petra Sobotka says:

      I would also listen to the orders of my master if he put an electric collar around my neck to contract my muscles in case I wanted to do something he doesn’t want me to do. Wouldn’t you? Then finally, relationship with my master would greatly improve after a few hardships, because now I would feel pain whenever I wanted to do something my master didn’t want. And there are so many things to do.

  16. Michelle Palios-Ramsburg says:

    been to four sessions of positive training classes with my puppy and I feel as though he expects a treat for everything and I don’t feel the class has addressed much. thankfully he is still young so I am hoping to incorporate less treats and more love and affection as a reward because I want him to see touch from myself and husband as a reward for a good job…not just a source for treats.

  17. TQ says:

    Long live Cesar Milan! 🥇

  18. David Barker says:

    Thank you so much for this video. I always knew Victoria Stilwell had no clue about dog training and now know why – she isn’t a dog trainer. Unfortunately the Positive Trainers and there our way is the only way and everyting else is abuse have created an entire generation of stupid and dangerous dog owners.

  19. Caitlin Coberly says:

    Not a fair representation of rewards-based dog trainers today. Using Victoria Stillwell as a example is of reward based dog training is about like using Cesar Milan as an example of a quality “balanced” trainer. TV personalities.

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